ASL Music – An Oxymoron?

October 10, 2007 Uncategorized

Amy Cohen Efron shares her opinion about the rising popularity of “ASL Music” throughout the blog/vlogosphere.

“ASL Music” is considered as an oxymoron itself! Ain’t that funny?

I have been watching several people using ASL to translate lyrical songs sung by famous singers or lyrics from well known songs. The idea of translating lyrical songs with American Sign Language is a bit strange to me.

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For whom who cannot view this, can watch via YouTube below

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According to the Wikipedia:

American Sign Language is a natural language as proved to the satisfaction of the linguistic community by William Stokoe, and contains phonology, morphology, semantics, syntax and pragmatics just like spoken languages. It is a manual language or visual language, meaning that the information is expressed not with combinations of sounds but with combinations of handshapes, palm orientations, movements of the hands, arms and body, location in relation to the body, and facial expressions. While spoken languages are produced by the vocal cords only, and can thus be easily written in linear patterns, ASL uses the hands, head and body, with constantly changing movements and orientations. Like other natural sign languages, it is “three dimensional” in this sense.

Music is an art form consisting of sound and silence expressed through time. Elements of sound as used in music are pitch (including melody and harmony), rhythm (including tempo and meter), structure, and sonic qualities of timbre, articulation, dynamics, and texture.

How can ASL and Music be compatible? It may be, or sometimes it is not compatible!

First, three things to remember:

1. Music has their own elements that is universal. Everyone (Deaf and Hearing people) can understand through hearing AND feeling music.

2. Lyrics are the spoken words of the song, and song lyric conveys its power through music and sound. Lyrical images and descriptive phrases need to connect with the ear, as well as the brain. These lyrics does NOT connect with the EYE of the viewer.

3. ASL Poetry comes with ASL rhymes and meter are commonly accepted in the Deaf community today. According to Clayton Valli, an ASL rhyme is formed through the repetition of particular handshapes, movement paths of signs, or non-manual signals (i.e. facial expressions).

Why would we insist on translating song lyrics with American Sign Language? This translation process may give Deaf person an access to music, but this does not provide an ultimate musical experience through ASL.

Why cannot we create something with ASL, in a poetic/dramatic/cinematic form, and complement this with music?

I know of one excellent example that can be accurately reflects to ASL music is Gallaudet’s famous Bison Song. See the video how two people express themselves with ASL poetic song and following drum beats simultaneously.

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39 comments on “ASL Music – An Oxymoron?”

I completely agree. Completely!

In fact, American songs are often untranslated in other countries, aren’t they? It’s the same the other way around. People who don’t understand Italian yet listen to Italian songs.

The thing is, a song works the best in its original version rather than being translated to a different language.

Translating a spoken song into ASL is not ASL Music. It’s a translation of a song. Nothing more.

I’m familiar with the Bison song. Ernest C. Drury, a school the deaf in Milton, Ontario of Canada. The school has a song of its own, it was obviously inspired by the Bison song. We use a drum too to go along with the school’s song. I should know because I used to attend there. 🙂

No opinion one way or other but… All my ASL songs I posted so far except for “Star-Spangled Banner” (that is a translation anyway) are orignials by me. That is why I run out of ASL songs fast because I’m not song-artist type of person from lack of their popularity.

Um, just to prevent any confusion. I meant to say that I used to attend ECD. I never attended Gallaudet University. Several teachers at ECD used to attend Gallaudet University. So I imagine that’s how we came up with the school song.

‘Star-Spangled Banner’ is one song that comes to my mind that translates into ASL very well because it’s very action-oriented.

ASL music are often action-packed.

Interesting.. I am profoundly deaf.. I have no clue about the high and low in the music.. but about ASL translation to music.. Most of the times, I have seen.. it was horrible!!! Missing some most beautiful words into whatever signs.. For example, when a translator says.. somewhere upon a star… sometimes, translator who tries to be too “asl” might skip the word, “some” to say somewhere.. translator might will say.. with point finger.. point around up…. that is.. that is where the beautiful words can be missing through asl translation if used like this way… Sometimes, in my opinion, it is great to say, “to be” in spelling in the song.. or whatever. I have to analyze this but generally, sometimes it is good to say “to be” accurately where deaf people will see the words, to be.. Like words, the song.. “As it is meant to be!”. 🙂

I love into this. The translation.

You’re right about asl music has to translated properly. Hearing people’s music and asl does not get along. Garrett Bose is right about skipping the words. I had experienced such like that too often. Not worth my time, really. I am stone deaf myself. So, ASL song has to express literally and beautifully! Drum with ASL, hmm, can be done, smile. That’s why I got goofed with Jon Savage’s ASL Poetry on Lotus, smile… He expressed poetry, but I got confused with the singing rhyme, oh, well. smile.

deafk

no question about it.. when songs are transliterated into ASL, something is lost. I think of this in the same way when hearing people make a joke and it flies right over our heads and when its repeated back to us, the joke loses its flavor and takes the ‘ha ha’ factor right out of it. With songs, same thing 🙂

be creative with ASL poetry and stories.. and get instrutmental music to match it.

RFW

Amy, thank you for bringing this up! What some people claim as ASL music really bothered me for some time. What’s more, the song people sing from the lyrics are not in ASL but mostly word for word in English.

Bison song is a perfect example of how ASL music should be developed where beat and rhythm go along with ASL version. I have worked with one of my students like how those did for Bison song but it’s about deaf and hearing for the ASL Literature Contest. I am proud of all of these kids I worked with in my class as three of them won 1st, 2nd and 3rd place and the one who did ASL music wasn’t in these places 🙁

I want to see more ASL friendly songs being done as opposed to following the lyrics. I personally do not enjoy that kind of song although I appreciate their effort.

I agreed 100% with you. My stomach churns when someone attempted to claim that translating these songs can be considered as a part of ASL. I disagreed. Ack!

You can translate and enjoy but please do NOT call it ASL music. It is not.

Cheers,

R-

Yes, it’s so interesting. Although we cannot hear, we can also enjoy wonderful music by this way- ASL music.
Bison song, well done. I like it, and it’s obvious that majority of deaf/HOH people love it. And I have viewed much other ASL music on youtube.com. It tell us that all people can share the nice music, but not only hearing people.
I plan to write an article about ASL music on my blog:deafs.com/blog/megan, and put some interesting video for pretty ASL music which I met ever…I’ll done it soon

First, I have to say I LOVE the Bison song! Your vlog came out at the perfect time – with Gallaudet’s homecoming on calendar this month. Anyone who hasn’t seen the Bison song in person should head over to Gallaudet.

I agree with you about translated songs not being ASL music. Ridor has a point that translated songs can be enjoyed by some Deaf people, but shouldn’t be called ASL music. I can’t tell you how many times I have watched a “translated” song and completely lost track of what the song was about. How many seconds can you make a sign last anyway? Think “fly away” being drawn out for a good 30 seconds. By the time the translator has moved on to the next sentence, I am lost! Who flew away? Where did he go? Maybe my memory is short, ha.

True ASL music must be created from our language and have a Deaf-friendly rhythm. Wonderful vlog as always!

Candace

Think about Beethoven. What did he make himself so unique and special? He made the audience so enjoyable!

He lost his hearing when he was about 20’s. I believe that he learned to use his music BEFORE his hearing loss came to his life.

At this point, in my opinion, I believe that the high volume of hard of hearing young kids have learned the relationship between the rhythm and the lyrics at the very early age. I know it’s hard and lots of work to learn.

As for the deafness issue, I agree with Candace and Ridor. It’s definitely out of question.

Hugs as always!

White Ghost

I forwarded this to my son who is a huge fan of music, and listens to music daily, plus he is CODA and his sister is hard of hearing and a native ASL signer. I was curious to what he says. He wrote back after watching your video, “I kind of agree with her (Amy) but I also feel like you can really understand percussion. You know, what a beat is. You feel bass. You FEEL that. A rhythm. That’s music, too!” Then he added some more, “Oh, and something I forgot to add earlier is that when people interpret songs into ASL, it gives a song a new life. It’s singing the song differently. It’s something special. Taking the lyrics and expressingin a set time to the beat, etc. I think it’s neat.” I am very deaf, but I find myself enjoying the beats although I do not understand the words. I think few people are talented at bringing the songs into beautiful ASL songs, almost like ASL storytelling where people can relax and enjoy them, for example, Ella Mae Lentz. 🙂

Amy,

You brought up a really good topic here and I’m with you 100%.

I have to admit I’m one of the vloggers who signed to music and I know it is NOT ASL music. It’s the ASL version of the songs.

I’m not here to say who’s right and who’s wrong. I’ve seen lot of songs being transliterated and it really hurt my eyes while watching beautiful songs being butched into pieces…

ASL Music is completely different from ASL version. Amy did excellent job explaining what ASL music SHOULD be. I loved Bison song and it is a true example of ASL Music.

My reasons for setting up ASL version of songs are:

1. to show that Deaf person who knows ASL is capable of translating the meaning of the lyrics to ASL;

2. to show that Deaf person can get more creative when it comes to holding long notes rather than holding the sign as to “freeze”;

3. to show that it takes someone who is native ASL signer and/or near-native signer to understand that the translation is essential when conveying in ASL from English (and other foreign languages).

I’ve had several ASL students emailing me asking me how I came to translate and how I convey the concept of the whole point of the song. I strongly encourage them to focus on the concept of the songs and what was the message. I encourage them to get more creative when it comes to choosing signs for specific words.

And last thing, 90% of Deaf people grew up with hearing families. Out of that, some of us embrace music (that includes me) and embrace Deaf identity and ASL. For us, to create ASL version songs is a way to express how much we appreciate two different worlds coming together. That is how I see it. I guess I can speak for SOME of us Deaf vloggers who sign ASL version of songs.

Kudos to Amy for bringing it up and clarifying it and sharing her opinion on this topic.

Hello everyone,
I dont see why change ASL Music for instance
B.A.D. ASL Music she did made a beauitful songs in ASL. Perhap she just like to be named is all no need to critizes or whateverso.
However, I do understand that Amy see the point about ASL Music.. so what do you call B.A.D, in signing music then?
SB 😉

I LOVE the bison song. I would go to all the sports events just to see it. Now, where can I get that drum?

Translating ASL from a music tape with lyrics is a variation of artistic expression. And doesn’t it expose deaf children why certain songs from the “hearing” world are making these singers and the music industry rich? “Oh, that? How boring!”

To extradite it entirely is an extreme approach, which we should all avoid. I find it strange when someone says something was wrong 100%, which is not a whole approach to addressing issues, and certainly not a model to children how we should address them, instead of inquiring how it is and why it is and its affects.

But, I can understand how funny it would look when the music is not being heard by the listener and why repetitive words being signed over and over again.

When we adapt ASL from reading books, there are principles for reading to deaf children. Sometimes we add and expand what is implied in the reading. The tempo and timing of the beats would limit this, and that’s a challenge for the translator.

Don’t forget that there is something deeper involved in the music experience than only sound. Good music causes a person to conjure up a lot of visual imagery in their mind, for example, a breeze blowing the tree tops in the forest, or maybe visual imagery of childhood memories at the beach, etc, etc.

This is kind of like “mental cinematography.” Really, the sound part of the music is not the fundamental thing. A deaf person who watches an artistic film or movie that was made with good cinematography and visual imagery is getting a very similar experience–or actually a cognitively identical experience, at the deep level of cognition.

Let me give a funny story… It included deaf pageant. Okay, when the candidate danced with the music, she was given first prize for the best show. The hearing people ran to the Deaf judges and informed them that that music had a lot of curse words. The Deaf judges got embrassed. I was there, and one of the Deaf judges informed me. Whoa!

immediately went to judges, not ran, sorry. deafk

I’m at a loss for words to what you’ve shared. I’ll try my best to convey my thoughts. I cannot say I agree with you 100% as some commenters have…I’ve watched several vloggers such as Mike Schmidt, B.A.D. (ASL MUSIC) and Red Big Bear signing songs. I’ve enjoyed watching them. Then when I saw your title, it jolted me to see your vlogging title, adding in the word, “oxymoron” (almost like a slap cuz of the part word “moron”)…when I’ve just enjoyed, immensely, with B.A.D.’s song, in memory of her old classmate. Then when I opened your vlog and watched your video, I realized you were speaking in general. I feel that every one is entitled to sign in music, to their hearts’ content. I feel bad for them as they’ve worked so hard to make their music video for others to enjoy.
I’ve always enjoyed music as it’s an added BONUS when someone signs for us, so we can feel and understand with emotions, cuz with just music and no words to understand, we lose interest and wouldn’t want to be bothered…but when someone makes an effort to translate some words to go with music, it makes it very enjoyable.
I was wondering if you can show us an example of what you think is an ASL music, or maybe call that Deaf Music. I think some of us have never heard or watched Bison Song, would anyone be able to share with us, to give us an idea. To be truthful, I do not understand why you and others felt that way.
One question…are you saying that Deaf music should be done in ASL as a story with music…wouldn’t that be called Deaf Poetry? As you can see, I’m at a loss for words because I’m not clear, as I think some others may agree, so would you clarify or give some video example? Thanks!

hooray! you say it all.

Oh geesh! Sorry, I overlooked the 2nd video which showed Bison Song. It sounds great for a great many deaf people like us. Like there’s different style of music such as Rock n Roll, Country, R&B, etc., so it will be the same for Deaf Music.

Amy, you put into ASL words eloquently what I have felt all along! I always hated Signed music and would wince when deaf people insist on signing along with music. I can never stay in the same room when this is going on.
We need to move away from the elements (values, literature) of the English speaking world and develop literature based on our ASL. I do not mean rejecting English literature, we can acknowledge it, BUT we need more ASL people focusing on creating ASL poetry and stories since we have so VERY little of that kind of literature. Books and CD’s fill up shelves and shelves and shelves and shelves in libraries and stores all over the world, yet we have to search so hard to find original (not translated) ASL poetry and ASL stories. A full collection of original ASL poetry and ASL stories may fill a mere shelf or two.
Yes, English-speaking (or any other languages) DO value their music due to the rhythm they love so much…and they need to understand that we value our ASL poetry due to the rhythm we love so much.
Look at Clayton Valli’s work. He had his PhD thesis on the only ASL poetry research in the world.
We, as ASL people, need to expend our energy looking at that research, developing more ASL poetry pieces, and teaching our ASL children our language and literature, rather than supporting the already vast English collections of music and English poetry.

Hey girl! 🙂

I’m not starting a war here, but I don’t agree. 😉

See… lyrics are not really spoken in “English-like” but rather more like “poems”.

That’s why I love Pearl Jam!! I even loved them even before I got my CI.

Their music – beats, rhyming, and so forth – would flow with how *I* felt and yes, I do change it in ASL.

Since their lyrics can be interpreted in different ways – based on your experience, perception, and exposure to whatever the song is about, I am free to express however I want in ASL with them. 🙂

Even other countries in different languages who love Pearl Jam would translate into their own languages.

Music does not discriminate, in my humble opinion.

BUT… yes, why not ASL music just for their own form of music. I’d love that as well!

Girl, I gotta take you to a concert with me and we’ll both rock our socks off!

\m/ yeaaaahh!!! \m/

I wanted to add:
Your suggestion about adding music to ASL poetry…I disagree with it. I doubt if Clayton Valli will like that too. The whole point of ASL poetry is to create rhythm using ASL features or elements. This kind of rhythm in ASL poetry (without music added) matches our need of visual enjoyment.
Ella Mae Lentz’s ASL poem, Eye Music, depicted ASL poetry beautifully. We CAN have that without the sound of music added! 🙂

I consider ASL Music to be visual songs with no sound, no lyrics, no words! It is ASL done in an art form with rythematic gracful signs that has meaning without words.

I think translating hit songs or any lyrics into ASL is awesome, but in no way is it considered ASL Music…call it what you want, deaf karaoke or whatever…but I think it’s cool. Anyone who has some hearing and enjoys music, would understand this.

I don’t consider Bison Song to be ASL music because it has lyrics and words.

I have seen ASL music once and it was beautiful. You can’t even translate it into English at all, no matter how much you try!

sorry for typos above…

Amy, I fully agree with you.. I love BISON song!!! I never forgot BISON song…

Ahhhhhhhh!!!

I’m not starting a war either 🙂 I also don’t agree with what has been said by Amy.

I will soon comment on this OR I will post a Vlog on my reason being of why I disagree.

Will do this soon, before this becomes “old news” !!

[…] ASL Music an Oxymoron? Amy’s Vlog What do you think? __________________ "The democracy will cease to exist when you take […]

OK this doesn’t have a lot to do with the other comments but I love your vlogs, they’re helping me learn ASL, grin. Thanks!

I strongly disagree with your perspective of ASL vs music. I go to church every Sunday and there is signed music so I can feel I am part of the congregation.

1st, i love the way you sign. Its so clear and precise. I’m hearing and sometimes my eyes just glaze over when people sign too fast or the signs all run together, but yours was beautiful!
2nd, I completely agree that interpreting music using signed english is not ASL music. As an interpreter at my church it is something that my ministry stuggles with constantly because we are always trying to convey the meaning of the song and not just the words and sometimes that is so hard to do. I am trying to become better at getting the concept of the song across and not just the lyrics.

Well, I used to attend a Baptist Church and even train to be a preacher for four years at that church’s college. Anyway, when the interpreter didn’t take time to read the songs and think out ASL translation, it tends to be PSE. So I often saw the looks in other deaf people that is similar to when people sign too English-y to them. It is because the interpreters often didn’t take time to study songs in hymn books and translate them and practice them. Often they just check out the number the choir master gave them before the service, and it is it. *growl* That is why we Deaf people just felt like we were just copying signs oftentimes. It was terrible too for special songs because it is rare that interpreters knew that special song by heart and practiced correct translation.

Would it make them ASL music? No way! Personally, I don’t think the word “music” is proper anyway because music means the noises made by instruments (natural or otherwise). I think it should be called ASL song. But it is an oxyomoron if the interpreter just know it by heart but NOT TRANSLATING IT! But I didn’t expect that much from them since most of them are terrible interpreters on the basis that they had not been professionally trained but rather had learned sign langauge by interaction with Deaf ministry and it was it. *shake head in disapproval* That was the area my old church need to figure out how ot improve. *shrug* If ever I visit it again, I will be sure to give them my opinion, now that I have a good way to express needs as an strong thinking-for-myself Deaf *smiles*.

Again good topic, Amy! And don’t worry about RSS feed for comments link, I finally figured out how ot subscribe to yours *smile*. Looking forward for more from you!

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You tell me about it… 🙂 I am ASL major and 100% agree with you!!!

i think this is a perfect example of how a few people in the deaf world, try to push a wedge between the ‘deaf world’ and the ‘hearing world’. When hearing people have a pasion for signing (either asl, or see) and you continue to find reasons why it is inappropriate, or inaccurate, then eventually the hearing will stop having that passion and drive to try to help and ‘merge’ the two worlds. you have no right to complain about equality, if everytime someone puts effort forth to try to share, you knock them down. people like you are the first to stand up and complain that you are not being treated ‘fairly’ or ‘equally’, but when efforts are made, you dont want to accept them, and help mend the two worlds.

Let me introduce myself… I am neither d/Deaf nor HOH, however, I am losing my hearing so I shall be HOH someday…I have always had an interest in trying to relate to this community… As a young child I had a deaf friend and in a small town I befriended the only deaf person in my school.. I have struggled with communication but have tried as best I could.

I have self-taught myself ASL vocabulary, though I have not mastered the syntax/grammar involved with this beautiful language. I transliterate songs into ‘signed English’ as a way of practicing and learning new words.. I do not claim to be interpreting these songs I love into ASL… I know better than that… many people in the hearing world think this is a true translation and something of beauty… to them, it is… and I do not begrudge anyone their opinion…

When I view signed songs, I do pretty good in understanding them… but that is only those in the format of the English spoken language… I want to be able to understand native ASL speakers… I look at vlogs and see how little I know… I have a real struggle crossing over to the syntax and structure of this beautiful language…

As I have said, I am self taught and want to learn ASL properly… I wish there was a way that I could do this… I ask for the Deaf community to be patient with me and help me… I know I am the visitor here, but I hope that I can be helped as I am open to learning as best I can…

Thanks for your honesty and openness in relating Deaf culture to a representative of the hearing world…

Virginia in Northern NY State…

I wanted to say that I am a parent of a HOH and is going to go totally deaf eventually. I use these youtube videos to teach my daughter vocab. The deaf school here in Rome ny will not except her in the school. She is not “deaf enough” whatever that means. She understands both asl and see. I have also heard others say she needs to be in either the deaf community or the hearing. I refuse to choose becuase she needs to function in both. Instead of saying they are wrong with the asl music educate them about the difference and come togther. I have watched one youtube guy named neutralmage. He is far better then most and my daughter and her deaf aide love to watch him. I don’t find anything wrong if it makes you happy and thats the point. Thank you for letting me post.

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